Despair and Hope Tech Changes

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Despair and Hope Tech Changes

Postby Midori Oku » Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:14 am

I've been working on tech changes lately, and really need feedback on them. I mostly wanted to close gaps between the techs, or to make up for the lack of limit breaks. If limit breaks are added I will make changes. While some techs remain exactly the same, others got slight "buffs." While there are really no nerfs (unless you count higher PP Cost a nerf) I can explain why these changes were added. If you want to know why a certain tech was changed feel free to ask. So please, post any comments or questions you may have.

Note: Megiverse is not listed because of changes Agrajag has planed for it.

Here are some links to pages where the original stats are listed

Supplemental Stats with JP Only Techs: http://spoiler.sakura.ne.jp/rr/psu/inde ... 5%C3%A5%AF

Supplmental Stats: http://www.psupedia.info/Talk%253ATECHNICs.html

Pre-supplemental Stats: http://www.psupedia.info/TECHNICs.html

Foie
Status Effect: Burn
Hit Effect: Knockdown
Number of Targets: 4

lvl 1-10: 221-230%
PP Cost: 6
Burn lvl 2

lvl 11-20: 232-250%
PP Cost: 8
Burn lvl 3

lvl 21-30: 252-270%
PP Cost:9
Burn lvl 4

lvl 31-40: 271-280%
PP Cost: 11
Burn lvl 4

lvl 41-50: 283-310%
PP Cost: 12
Burn lvl 5

Rafoie
Status Effect: Burn
Hit Effect: Flinch

lvl 1-10: 131-140%
PP Cost: 12
Burn lvl 1
Number of Targets: 3

lvl 11-20: 141-150%
PP Cost: 16
Burn lvl 2
Number of Targets: 3

lvl 21-30: 152-170%
PP Cost 19
Burn lvl 3
Number of Targets: 4

lvl 31-40: 171-180%
PP Cost: 22
Burn lvl 3
Number of Targets: 5

lvl 41-50: 181-190%
PP Cost: 25
Burn lvl 4
Number of Targets: 6

Damfoie
Status Effect: Burn
Hit Effect: Flinch

lvl 1-10: 111-120%
PP Cost: 7
Burn lvl 3

lvl 11-20: 121-130%
PP Cost: 9
Burn lvl 3

lvl 21-30: 131-140%
PP Cost: 14
Burn lvl 3

lvl 31-40: 141-150%
PP Cost: 16
Burn lvl 3

lvl 41-50: 152-170%
PP Cost 19
Burn lvl 3

Gifoie
Status Effect: Burn
Hit Effect: Flinch
Number of Targets: 6

lvl 1-10: 131-140%
PP Cost: 16
Burn lvl 2

lvl 11-20: 141-150%
PP Cost: 20
Burn lvl 3

lvl 21-30: 151-160%
PP cost: 25
Burn lvl 3

lvl 31-40: 162-180%
PP Cost: 35
Burn lvl 4

lvl 41-50: 182-200%
PP Cost: 40
Burn lvl 5

Foverse
Status Effect: HP Steal
Hit Effect: None

lvl 1-10: 21-30%
PP Cost: 40
HP Steal lvl 1

lvl 11-20: 30%
PP Cost: 80
HP Steal lvl 2

lvl 21-30: 31-40%
PP Cost: 120
HP Steal lvl 3

lvl 31-40: 40%
PP Cost: 160
HP Steal lvl 3

lvl 41-50: 41-50%
PP Cost: 200
HP Steal lvl 4

Barta
Status Effect: Freeze
Hit Effect: Flinch

lvl 1-10: 117-135%
PP Cost: 8
Freeze lvl 1

lvl 11-20: 137-155%
PP Cost: 10
Freeze lvl 1

lvl 21-30: 158-185%
PP Cost: 12
Freeze lvl 2

lvl 31-40: 186-195%
PP Cost: 15
Freeze lvl 3

lvl 41-50: 197-210%
PP Cost: 17
Freeze lvl 4

Rabarta
Status Effect: Freeze
Hit Effect: Flinch

lvl 1-10: 121-130%
PP Cost: 12
Freeze lvl 1
Number of Targets: 3

lvl 11-20: 131-140%
PP Cost: 16
Freeze lvl 2
Number of Targets: 3

lvl 21-30: 142-160%
PP Cost: 19
Freeze lvl 3
Number of Targets: 4

lvl 31-40: 161-170%
PP Cost: 22
Freeze lvl 3
Number of Targets: 5

lvl 41-50: 171-180%
PP Cost: 25
Freeze lvl 4
Number of Targets: 6

Dambarta
Status Effect: Freeze
Hit Effect: Flinch

lvl 1-10: 101-110%
PP Cost: 6
Freeze lvl 3

lvl 11-20: 111-120%
PP Cost: 9
Freeze lvl 3

lvl 21-30: 121-130%
PP Cost: 12
Freeze lvl 3

lvl 31-40: 131-140%
PP Cost: 16
Freeze lvl 4

lvl 41-50: 142-160%
PP Cost: 19
Freeze lvl 4

Gibarta
Status Effect: Freeze
Hit Effect: Flinch
Number of Targets: 6

lvl 1-10: 131-140%
PP Cost: 16
Freeze lvl 2

lvl 11-20: 141-150%
PP Cost: 20
Freeze lvl 3

lvl 21-30: 151-160%
PP Cost: 25
Freeze lvl 4

lvl 31-40: 161-170%
PP Cost: 30
Freeze lvl 4

lvl 41-50: 172-190%
PP Cost: 35
Freeze lvl 5

Zonde
Status Effect: Shock
Hit Effect: Flinch

lvl 1-10: 127-145%
PP Cost: 8
Shock lvl 1

lvl 11-20: 147-165%
PP Cost: 10
Shock lvl 1

lvl 21-30: 168-195%
PP Cost: 12
Shock lvl 2

lvl 31-40: 196-205%
PP Cost: 15
Shock lvl 3

lvl 41-50: 206-215%
PP Cost: 17
Shock lvl 4

Razonde
Status Effect: Shock
Hit Effect: Launch

lvl 1-10: 126-135%
PP Cost: 12
Shock lvl 1
Number of Targets: 3

lvl 11-20: 136-145%
PP Cost: 16
Shock lvl 2
Number of Targets: 3

lvl 21-30: 147-165%
PP Cost: 190
Shock lvl 3
Number of Targets: 4

lvl 31-40: 166-175%
PP Cost: 22
Shock lvl 3
Number of Targets: 5

lvl 41-50: 176-185%
PP Cost: 25
Shock lvl 4
Number of Targets: 6

Gizonde
Status Effect: Shock
Hit Effect: Flinch
Number of Targets: 6

lvl 1-10: 131-140%
PP Cost: 16
Shock lvl 2

lvl 11-20: 141-150%
PP Cost: 20
Shock lvl 3

lvl 21-30: 151-160%
PP Cost: 25
Shock lvl 4

lvl 31-40: 161-170%
PP Cost: 30
Shock lvl 4

lvl 41-50: 172-190%
PP Cost: 35
Shock lvl 5

Noszonde
Status Effect: Shock
Hit Effect: Knockdown

lvl 1-10: 131-140%
PP Cost: 36
Shock lvl 2
Number of Targets: 3

lvl 11-20: 146-155%
PP Cost: 40
Shock lvl 3
Number of Targets: 3

lvl 21-30: 162-180%
PP Cost: 45
Shock lvl 3
Number of Targets: 4

lvl 31-40: 183-210%
Shock lvl 3
Number of Targets: 5

lvl 41-50: 213-240%
Shock lvl 4
Number of Targets: 6

Diga
Status Effect: Silence
Hit Effect: Knockdown
Number of Targets: 4

lvl 1-10: 231-240%
PP Cost: 6
Silence lvl 2

lvl 11-20: 242-260%
PP Cost: 9
Silence lvl 3

lvl 21-30: 262-280%
PP Cost: 12
Silence lvl 4

lvl 31-40: 282-300%
PP Cost: 15
Silence lvl 4

lvl 41-50: 302-320%
PP Cost: 18
Silence lvl 5

Radiga
Status Effect: Silence (changed from poison)
Hit Effect: Flinch

lvl 1-10: 141-150%
PP Cost: 16
Silence lvl 1
Number of Targets: 3

lvl 11-20: 151-160%
PP Cost: 20
Silence lvl 1
Number of Targets: 3

lvl 21-30: 162-180%
PP Cost: 24
Silence lvl 2
Number of Targets: 4

lvl 31-40: 181-190%
PP Cost: 28
Silence lvl
Number of Targets: 5

lvl 41-50: 191-200%
PP Cost: 32
Silence level 3
Number of Targets: 6

Damdiga
Status Effect: Poison
Hit Effect: Flinch

lvl 1-10: 121-130%
PP Cost: 7
Poison lvl 2

lvl 11-20: 131-140%
PP Cost: 9
Poison lvl 3

lvl 21-30: 141-150%
PP Cost: 14
Poison lvl 3

lvl 31-40: 151-160%
PP Cost: 17
Poison lvl 4

lvl 41-50: 162-180%
PP Cost: 20
Poison lvl 4

Gidiga
Status Effect: Silence
Hit Effect: Flinch
Number of Targets: 6

lvl 1-10: 151-160%
PP Cost: 16
Silence lvl 2

lvl 11-20: 161-170%
PP Cost: 20
Silence lvl 3

lvl 21-30: 171-180%
PP Cost: 25
Silence lvl 4

lvl 31-40: 181-190%
PP Cost: 30
Silence lvl 4

lvl 41-50: 192-210%
PP Cost: 35
Silence lvl 5

Nosdiga
Status Effect: Stun
Hit Effect: Flinch (changed from launch)

lvl 1-10: 131-140%
PP Cost: 30
Stun lvl 1

lvl 11-20: 146-155%
PP Cost: 33
Stun lvl 2

lvl 21-30: 163-190%
PP Cost: 36
Stun lvl 2

lvl 31-40: 193-220
PP Cost: 39
Stun lvl 2

lvl 41-50: 222-240%
PP Cost: 42
Stun lvl 3

Grants
Status Effect: TP/MST Down
Hit Effect: Knockdown
Number of Targets: 4

lvl 1-10: 221-230%
PP Cost: 12
TP/MST Down lvl 1

lvl 11-20: 232-250%
PP Cost: 16
TP/MST Down lvl 1

lvl 21-30: 252-270%
PP Cost: 19
TP/MST Down lvl 2

lvl 31-40: 271-280%
PP Cost: 33
TP/MST Down lvl 2

lvl 41-50: 281-290%
PP Cost: 36
TP/MST Down lvl 3

Damgrants
Status Effect: Sleep
Hit Effect: Flinch

lvl 1-10: 101-110%
PP Cost: 7
Sleep lvl 2

lvl 11-20: 111-120%
PP Cost: 9
Sleep lvl 2

lvl 21-30: 121-130%
PP Cost: 14
Sleep lvl 2

lvl 31-40: 131-140%
PP Cost: 17
Sleep lvl 3

lvl 41-50: 142-160%
PP Cost: 20
Sleep lvl 3

Regrant
Status Effect: Damage Reflect
Hit Effect: Blow Away

lvl 1-10: 71-80%
PP Cost: 4
Damage Reflect lvl 1

lvl 11-20: 81-90%
PP Cost: 7
Damage Reflect lvl 1

lvl 21-30: 91-100%
PP Cost: 9
Damage Reflect lvl 1

lvl 31-40: 102-120%
PP Cost: 12
Damage Reflect lvl 1

lvl 41-50: 123-150%
PP Cost: 14
Damage Reflect lvl 1

Nagrants
Status Effect: Sleep
Hit Effect: Flinch

lvl 1-10: 31-40%
PP Cost: 22
Sleep lvl 1

lvl 11-20: 41-50%
PP Cost: 28
Sleep lvl 2

lvl 21-30: 51-60%
PP Cost: 38
Sleep lvl 3

lvl 31-40: 62-80%
PP Cost: 44
Sleep lvl 3

lvl 41-50: 83-110%
PP Cost: 51
Sleep lvl 4

Megid
Status Effect: Incapacitate
Hit Effect: Flinch

lvl 1-10: 141-150%
PP Cost: 16
Incapacitate lvl 1

lvl 11-20: 151-160%
PP Cost: 20
Incapacitate lvl 2

lvl 21-30: 162-180%
PP Cost: 24
Incapacitate lvl 3

lvl 31-40: 181-190%
PP Cost: 28
Incapacitate lvl 3

lvl 41-50: 192-210%
Incapaciate lvl 4

Ramegid
Status Effect: Confusion
Hit Effect: Knockdown

lvl 1-10: 121-130%
PP Cost: 12
Confusion lvl 1
Number of Targets: 3

lvl 11-20: 131-140%
PP Cost: 16
Confusion lvl 2
Number of Targets: 3

lvl 21-30: 142-160%
PP Cost: 19
Confusion lvl 3
Number of Targets: 4

lvl 31-40: 161-170%
PP Cost: 22
Confusion lvl 3
Number of Targets: 5

lvl 41-50: 171-180%
PP Cost: 25
Confusion lvl 3
Number of Targets: 6

Dammegid
Status Effect: Infection
Hit Effect: Flinch

lvl 1-10: 121-130%
PP Cost: 7
Infection lvl 1

lvl 11-20: 131-140%
PP Cost: 9
Infection lvl 2

lvl 21-30: 141-150%
PP Cost: 14
Infection lvl 2

lvl 31-40: 152-170%
PP Cost: 17
Infection lvl 3

lvl 41-50: 172-190%
PP Cost: 20
Infection lvl 3

Nosmegid
Status Effect: HP Affects Power
Hit Effect: Knockdown

lvl 1-10: 126-135%
PP Cost: 24
HP Affects Power lvl 2

lvl 11-20: 141-150%
PP Cost: 27
HP Affects Power lvl 3

lvl 21-30: 157-175%
PP Cost: 30
HP Affects Power lvl 3

lvl 31-40: 177-195%
PP Cost: 33
HP Affects Power lvl 3

lvl 41-50: 200-245%
PP Cost: 36
HP Affects Power lvl 3
Last edited by Midori Oku on Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Despair and Hope Tech Changes

Postby Macman » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:30 pm

I see a large bias to flinch effects. Now I know blow away was a huge pain with things like Rafoie, but wouldn't it be more fair to have at least one tech in each element have some form of crowd control effect? Knockdowns and launches aren't inherently bad from what I've witnessed.
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Re: Despair and Hope Tech Changes

Postby Midori Oku » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:56 pm

Macman wrote:I see a large bias to flinch effects. Now I know blow away was a huge pain with things like Rafoie, but wouldn't it be more fair to have at least one tech in each element have some form of crowd control effect? Knockdowns and launches aren't inherently bad from what I've witnessed.


I just changed hit effects to what they were online. However, I'm going to test out some stuff with Ramegid since Agrajag is most likely going to get rid of the poison status effect. I'm thinking about changing it back to confusion and giving it the knockdown hit effect, Launch is a tough one. It does have its uses, but it can be more of a pain. Especially when it was on Nosdiga. I will have to test it out on different techs. Rabarta originally had knockdown on top of freeze. Talk about being able to stunlock enemies.

I"ll go back through them and see what I can do. I just want to try and keep it balanced.

Edit: Diga and Foie would be a good option for knockdown. Especially since we are not sure if limit breaks will be added. The following techs will have knockdown: Foie, Diga, Noszonde, Grants, Nosmegid, and possibly Ramegid. Ice techs really don't need knockdown since they all have a high level freeze effect.
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Re: Despair and Hope Tech Changes

Postby KanameChidori » Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:12 pm

Macman wrote:I see a large bias to flinch effects. Now I know blow away was a huge pain with things like Rafoie, but wouldn't it be more fair to have at least one tech in each element have some form of crowd control effect? Knockdowns and launches aren't inherently bad from what I've witnessed.


I wouldn't mind if blow away was removed completely from the game. I think it's a terrible effect. Enemies fly all over the place and it's just annoying. I understand why it's there, but I think flinch was enough. I'm biased as well, so eh.

Flavor changes for more realism, because why not?- On a side note. I don't think Foie should have a knockdown simply because it's just a fireball. This is probably just me trying to add flavor but I think a flinch would make more sense on Foie. Same with Ramegid. Seeing as it's just dark energy. Diga and Radiga skills having knockdown or blow back makes sense because they are more physical techs, same for Rafoie being an explosion.
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Re: Despair and Hope Tech Changes

Postby Macman » Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:16 pm

Yeah, I agree with ice techs not needing anything more than flinch since they inflict freeze.
Gidiga would be amusing to use if it launched enemies since it's a localized earth tremor.
Diga knocking down makes sense at higher levels, especially since I think it would be more than difficult to shrug off what appears to be a miniature sun colliding with them.

I think you can delegate crowd control effects based on tier of it, right? I remember offline that Rafoie didn't get the obnoxious blow away effect until level 21+. Could still be used as a form of progression.
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Re: Despair and Hope Tech Changes

Postby Midori Oku » Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:02 pm

Yes, you can change it based on tier.

Anyway, Foie having knockdown would give fire techs a knockdown , as well as ever so slightly making up for the lack of limit break. From my perspective knockdown would make sense on Ramegid since the description calls it a "gravity field." So naturally I would assume it's crushing the enemies it hits. I just want Ramegid to be able to keep up with the other Ra-techs in some way. Launch on Gidiga actually sounds pretty fun. I'll have to try it out. Although I'm going to assume it's going to make it hard to spam since enemies are constantly going to be in the air.
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Re: Despair and Hope Tech Changes

Postby LightDark » Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:36 am

Midori Oku wrote:Diga
Number of Targets: 4

Grants
Number of Targets: 4

Typo?

Like one of the above posts said, the flinch effect seems to be bias. If anything, it's beating around the bush since you can make an argument that it's better to remove the flinch effect but raise the Tech% (and potentially PP cost) instead.

Some TECHNICs being stronger in terms of Tech% by a slight margin also doesn't make sense either. In particular, I'm referring to Razonde and Radiga, complementary of each other, yet still somehow Radiga is stronger than it. Why? Is Shock Lv.4 vs. Silence Lv.3 really that big of a difference to justify a 25% difference?
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Re: Despair and Hope Tech Changes

Postby Midori Oku » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:33 am

LightDark wrote:
Midori Oku wrote:Diga
Number of Targets: 4

Grants
Number of Targets: 4

Typo?

Like one of the above posts said, the flinch effect seems to be bias. If anything, it's beating around the bush since you can make an argument that it's better to remove the flinch effect but raise the Tech% (and potentially PP cost) instead.

Some TECHNICs being stronger in terms of Tech% by a slight margin also doesn't make sense either. In particular, I'm referring to Razonde and Radiga, complementary of each other, yet still somehow Radiga is stronger than it. Why? Is Shock Lv.4 vs. Silence Lv.3 really that big of a difference to justify a 25% difference?


No, that's not a typo. Why would it be? It's on Foie too! :)

Anyway, it's not really me that's being bias. Blame Sega for that. As I said above "I just changed hit effects to what they were online." Adding stuff such as knockdown can easily make a tech overpowered, or adding something like launch can easily make a tech useless. Nosdiga was a great example of launch hurting a tech. The 15% (not 25% damage difference between Radiga is not that massive. The 15% difference is what Sega had it at. I could adjust it to be slightly closer, or possibly add launch back to it. However, that will require some testing to see if actually hurts the tech or not. Another option could be adding knockdown to it as well. Tell you what. I'll work with the Ra-techs a bit over the next few days and see what I can come up with. I'll post my results when I'm done.
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Re: Despair and Hope Tech Changes

Postby KanameChidori » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:50 am

The best way to handle it would be to just change the techs across the board. So each tech sub-type could just have even %. Foie, Grants, and Diga should all be the same for damage and hits. Say 320% and 4 targets. Ra-techs should just have 3-6 targets level 11-41 and 200%, etc. I never understood why some skills were weaker than others when they were simply different elements. Ra, Gi, Dam, etc. Status effects in general are not that big of a deal, no run relies on them. I have never had a run change significantly because I get an extra burn or silence. An enemy that gets hit by a burn lv5 would still die on the next cast. Like how Foie is weaker than Diga for no reason. Same with Barta and Zonde the list goes on.

Sidenote: Launch is terrible, it completely destroyed Nosdiga and would most likely do the same thing to any tech. Unless it's possible to have the enemies launched above the tech and not fly away. So you could bounce them up and down a few times.

Sidenote 2: Are PAs and Bullets being looked at as well? I played mainly GM and FM, so I was wondering if they were also going to be looked at (I would be willing to help on these if needed). There were many PAs that should have been nerfed/buffed or changed.
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Re: Despair and Hope Tech Changes

Postby Midori Oku » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:25 am

KanameChidori wrote:The best way to handle it would be to just change the techs across the board. So each tech sub-type could just have even %. Foie, Grants, and Diga should all be the same for damage and hits. Say 320% and 4 targets. Ra-techs should just have 3-6 targets level 11-41 and 200%, etc. I never understood why some skills were weaker than others when they were simply different elements. Ra, Gi, Dam, etc. Status effects in general are not that big of a deal, no run relies on them. I have never had a run change significantly because I get an extra burn or silence. An enemy that gets hit by a burn lv5 would still die on the next cast. Like how Foie is weaker than Diga for no reason. Same with Barta and Zonde the list goes on.

Sidenote: Launch is terrible, it completely destroyed Nosdiga and would most likely do the same thing to any tech. Unless it's possible to have the enemies launched above the tech and not fly away. So you could bounce them up and down a few times.

Sidenote 2: Are PAs and Bullets being looked at as well? I played mainly GM and FM, so I was wondering if they were also going to be looked at (I would be willing to help on these if needed). There were many PAs that should have been nerfed/buffed or changed.


I would say a lot of it has to do with neutral damage and status effects. In comparison between freeze and shock, freeze wins by a long shot. It would make sense for Barta to be weaker than Zonde in that situation. As for your no run relies on status effects statement, I completely disagree. I could give you many examples of them being useful. A good example of major noticeable difference would be in S4 runs, and in time attacks, or even in missions with lots of tech resistant enemies. My Snowcap Screamer S4 video(s) would be a perfect example of all three of those. Hell, burn traps were used a lot in solo/team time attack runs. Especially in time attack events such as the GGC. Maybe just I ran missions as a Masterforce in a different way? After all, I didn't really play much else, but I'm sure you know that already. :p

To each his own?

As for melee PA's and bullets, I could look at possibly doing something for them. For the most part I would say bullets were balanced. Melee PA's on the other hand were a different story. Either way all of it should be made equivalent to the online since offline PA are far more powerful than they should be. I've been in contact with Jess about this subject. He wants to help balance out the melee PAs. I'm sure gaps could be closed, but I would really like to see more of a difference between rifles and twin handguns. The DPS was roughly the same, but rifles had higher status effect levels.
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