Despair and Hope Tech Changes

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Re: Despair and Hope Tech Changes

Postby LightDark » Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:30 am

Midori Oku wrote:Anyway, it's not really me that's being bias. Blame Sega for that. As I said above "I just changed hit effects to what they were online." Adding stuff such as knockdown can easily make a tech overpowered, or adding something like launch can easily make a tech useless. Nosdiga was a great example of launch hurting a tech. The 15% (not 25% damage difference between Radiga is not that massive. The 15% difference is what Sega had it at. I could adjust it to be slightly closer, or possibly add launch back to it. However, that will require some testing to see if actually hurts the tech or not. Another option could be adding knockdown to it as well.

Even if the 15% (right, I didn't do the math correctly - my fault) difference is not that "massive", it is still damage missing between the two techs that make no sense to do in the first place. Even if it is originally like that, there is no reason why you couldn't adjust it now - after all, you are in charge of the TECHNICs so you should be able to manipulate them so that while they are balanced, they should also make logical sense to do. In this case, Shock Lv.4 @185% vs. Silence Lv.3 @200% makes no sense.

That said, I am also unsure how Agra will be adjusting the stats for the game so I can't say how well these TECHNICs work in practice nor will I know what to adjust but as I said, "flinching" is not and should not be the default response to everything. If you haven't done so (I'm sure you have, you might have mentioned it at some point), when you try out your runs, take note of which TECHNICs you use that are frequent and which ones that are less used then find ways to rebalance the ones that are less used.
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Re: Despair and Hope Tech Changes

Postby KanameChidori » Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:58 am

LightDark wrote:Even if the 15% (right, I didn't do the math correctly - my fault) difference is not that "massive", it is still damage missing between the two techs that make no sense to do in the first place. Even if it is originally like that, there is no reason why you couldn't adjust it now - after all, you are in charge of the TECHNICs so you should be able to manipulate them so that while they are balanced, they should also make logical sense to do. In this case, Shock Lv.4 @185% vs. Silence Lv.3 @200% makes no sense.

That said, I am also unsure how Agra will be adjusting the stats for the game so I can't say how well these TECHNICs work in practice nor will I know what to adjust but as I said, "flinching" is not and should not be the default response to everything. If you haven't done so (I'm sure you have, you might have mentioned it at some point), when you try out your runs, take note of which TECHNICs you use that are frequent and which ones that are less used then find ways to rebalance the ones that are less used.


The problem is not if the techs are more useful, it was about which runs were done the most. For a full light mission all of the dark techs besides maybe Megiverse were used. For a full Ice run all of the fire techs were used. All the techs are usable (besides buffs, as a MF) depending on the mission element. I still stand by what I said before which is to standardize the damage on all techs so that their counterparts are not stronger or weaker. All Ra-tech should have the same damage, all Gi-techs, etc. The status effects are not that big of a deal and next to no run changed because of them. The only time a status effect would matter was in some S4 missions or certain events where burn ticked for a ridiculous 9k or whatever it was on that Svaltus.
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Re: Despair and Hope Tech Changes

Postby LightDark » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:02 am

KanameChidori wrote:All the techs are usable

If this were true, then why is there even a thread about suggested changes to make on said techs?

It is absolutely the case that not all TECHNICs are "usable", either because they serve no niche or they are hindered by their own properties and that is the reason why they need to be adjusted. Bringing nothing but fire TECHNICs to an ice mission does not mean the TECHNICs will be equally used - understandable that some are better suited than others in certain situations (e.g. crowd control vs. single) but the situations are exactly whey the TECHNICs need to be adjusted.

But I'm not saying "go make all Ra-, Gi-, techs equal" because as someone already said, there is still the neutral damage to consider about; that leads to redundancy and redundancy is bad. Status effects, knockdown and launch are all useful one way or another and important factors to consider when balancing, but they are also keys to making certain TECHNICs better. So they should all be considered in some way and if need be, readjust the "penalties" (e.g. raise the TP cost) to fit them in, rather than dilute the TECHNICs with a flinch effect a la PSO style.
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Re: Despair and Hope Tech Changes

Postby KanameChidori » Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:09 pm

I could list a ton of reasons why they were usable, but I'm too lazy. I just don't want the techs to be balanced with a TAing bias. I believe that's why Flinch is so prevalent in most of the changes listed (yes copied from online, but they could have been changed). Flinch is probably the best effect for TAing (Shock/Freeze are probably here as well. Though Shock is probably less so.). Confusion made them move around and ungroup themselves/hitting each other, silence didn't really matter for most runs, and poison/burn/infection were not significant enough in almost any run besides the one or two events I mentioned before.

At the end of the day I guess I don't really care what the changes are. I just wanted to throw my ideas from my experience out there.
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Re: Despair and Hope Tech Changes

Postby shade » Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:59 pm

KanameChidori wrote:I just don't want the entire game to be balanced with a TAing bias.
Image

I just wanted express my support for this idea.
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Re: Despair and Hope Tech Changes

Postby Midori Oku » Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:36 am

I just want to point out that if I wanted to be bias and base hit effects off of a TA standpoint, I would give everything other than Regrant knockdown and call it a day. Everything in the game (to my knowledge) has a hit effect. Bullets had flinch (rifles had knockdown), and all melee PA's had some form of a hit effect. As stated before, launch is useless on techs, knockdown is way too powerful to have on a lot of techs, "blow away" is not useful on anything other than Regrant because it can knockdown large targets like Seed Ardites. Flinch is the only hit effect that does not make a tech too powerful, or somewhat nerf some techs.

KanameChidori, I somewhat agree with you that poison and infection my not be extremely useful (they are slow), but burn is far better than you think. You are correct that smaller enemies die before burn really does much (it can still make them die faster at times), however, it is extremely useful against large/tech resistant enemies. Especially large tech resistant enemies such as Jarba. Ice techs are useless against Jarba, even the fire type ones. Nosdiga is the highest DPS tech against them, but you're talking about a neutral damage type that is doing half damage. Burn gives you the option to increase your DPS against them, but you will still kill them slower than a GM/FM regardless. I do respect your opinion though, and I hope respect mine as well. Regardless of if burn are useless or not, I'm not changing burn as it wouldn't make sense for fire techs to have something else.

Yes, I did time attack, and some of my changes are related to my experience of time attacking. However, most of my changes are not time attack related at all. Especially since there is a lack of limit breaks at the moment. If Agrajag does add limit breaks changes will obviously be made. I only stepped in to help Agrajag with something that has been bothering me about the offline since the first time I ever played it. The offline PAs are far too powerful (in terms of damage modifiers) compared to the enemies in the offline, and even compared to the online enemies/PAs. To give you an idea, offline Gidiga at level 50 as a damage modifier of 570%, online Gidiga had a 210% damage modifier. Hell, Diga (the highest damage modifier tech in the online) had a damage modifier of 310% in the online. You can't tell me that's not overpowered. Trust me, I like to roflstomp enemies in games such as PSU, but that is just ridiculous. Even offline techs at level 1 are more powerful than their online counterparts at level 50. Level 1 Rafoie/Gidiga in the offline are more powerful than level 50 Diga in the online. AOE techs being more powerful than single target techs is crazy.

To my knowledge, Agrajag had no intentions of changing PA stats until I volunteered to help with it. People complained that characters in the online were too powerful. It's the same thing with the offline. Agrajag and I have talked about about testing these changes in terms of power when the project gets to that point. They may or may not be scaled down. Agrajag ultimately has the final say so in these changes, my role is only to help. So please, don't accuse me of being bias as I'm obviously willing to make changes based on feedback. I could have easily given Agrajag the list of changes without asking for feedback from everyone who is following this project.

Edit: I am eventually going to get around to making changes to PP costs. I only changed a few for obvious reasons.
Last edited by Midori Oku on Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Despair and Hope Tech Changes

Postby Macman » Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:40 am

...I hope Dilnazens will stop spamming so much blow away.
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Re: Despair and Hope Tech Changes

Postby Agrajag » Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:25 pm

Macman wrote:...I hope Dilnazens will stop spamming so much blow away.

Don't bet on it.
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Re: Despair and Hope Tech Changes

Postby Midori Oku » Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:41 pm

Agrajag wrote:
Macman wrote:...I hope Dilnazens will stop spamming so much blow away.

Don't bet on it.

Yous should give each of their attacks the confusion status effect on top of the blow away. :3
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Re: Despair and Hope Tech Changes

Postby GlowBox » Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:23 am

Midori Oku wrote:
Agrajag wrote:
Macman wrote:...I hope Dilnazens will stop spamming so much blow away.

Don't bet on it.

Yous should give each of their attacks the confusion status effect on top of the blow away. :3

Hi :)
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